Ms. Gramian was a federal FOIA practitioner for over 25 years before retiring from NASA this January. She began her career in 1999 as a FOIA analyst for the Department of Justice’s Executive Office for United States Attorneys. She then managed the FOIA unit of the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of Inspector General from 2005 to 2013. Before joining NASA in 2018, Ms. Gramian served as the Deputy Director of the Office of Government Information Services at the National Archives and Records Administration.
[This Q&A has been edited for length and clarity]
Q. To start, congratulations on your retirement! How has FOIA changed for government employees in terms of processing requests--for better or worse--over the past 25 years? Related, what do you miss about it, and what do you not miss, since retiring?
A. Thank you for the congratulatory wishes. One thing that has changed in terms of processing FOIA requests is the emerging use of technology. Using new technology for searches and the de-duplication of records has made huge improvements in terms of processing records faster and more accurately. As to the second part of your question, I can’t say I’ve missed the work since retirement. FOIA work is very challenging because it requires meeting strict deadlines while reviewing complex records that are often spread across multiple systems. At NASA, for example, many records are highly technical, which poses a challenge when processing them under FOIA. The FOIA Specialists’ success depends on organization, sound judgment, and effective coordination with subject matter experts, which was so time consuming that it frequently caused me anxiety. So, it’s too early for me to say I miss the work. But I do miss my supervisor(s), colleagues at NASA FOIA unit, and our talented and intelligent OGC attorneys who were tasked with assisting the unit.
Q. What advice would you give to someone starting out in FOIA today?
A. FOIA is not black and white. There isn’t one set of rules you learn and that’s it. Be prepared and open to learn a lot more. I worked in this profession for 25 years and I continued to encounter and learn from new issues until I retired.
Q. How has the requester community changed over the last 25 years?
A. The requester community has definitely changed over the last 25 years. While many FOIA requesters are very reasonable to work with and their intent is to use the law to report on “what their government is up to,” there are those in the past few years who, in my opinion, abused the law by submitting hundreds of extremely broad, lengthy, and frequently frivolous requests. Their intent was not to obtain specific records, but to burden or disrupt the agency. I experienced that first hand at NASA before I retired and it was truly an abuse.
Q. Have you ever filed a FOIA request? If so, what did you ask for and what was your experience like?
A. No, I have never filed a FOIA request. However, I might start by volunteering at non-profit organizations and helping them craft better requests, if the opportunity arises.
Q. What is something you wish the requester community understood better?
A. This is such a great question. While I could say a great deal, I’ll focus on one issue I frequently faced during my FOIA career: many requesters misunderstand the role the FOIA unit plays within the agency. I would like the FOIA requester community to understand that the agency FOIA unit and its employees are neutral parties. FOIA personnel see records only after a FOIA request has been filed and have no role in the underlying agency actions or decisions that are the subject of requested records. Part of the problem is that FOIA offices are required to publish the email addresses and phone numbers of senior staff online. As a result, frustrated individuals find it easier to direct their anger toward the FOIA unit rather than toward the individual or office actually responsible for the matters at issue.
Q. What led you to working at DOJ/EOUSA’s FOIA office?
A. EOUSA was involved in several highly complex FOIA lawsuits before I joined the office. When a vacancy was announced, someone from DOJ reached out and strongly encouraged me to apply. I applied and was hired to assist the division director, who was working closely with the U.S. Attorney’s Office defending the office in those cases. I have to say, working on those lawsuits was the best FOIA training for me. One of my responsibilities was drafting Vaughn indices and declarations for the director or other attorneys. As I reviewed each document to draft the Vaughn index, I often noticed that the records had been overly redacted. I would then re-process the records and issue supplemental releases before drafting the Vaughn index. This practice taught me a great deal about processing.
Q. What is the most unusual FOIA request you have ever handled? Along the same lines, of all the many FOIA matters you have worked on, which was the most controversial or received the greatest media coverage?
A. I've handled several unusual FOIA requests, but the most high-profile and complex one involved the Waco (Branch Davidian) prosecution records. I was part of the litigation team defending a FOIA lawsuit over 18 specific documents listed by the Texas Rangers—documents no one had been able to find because the U.S. Attorney’s Office used a different evidentiary list. I manually reviewed over 10,000 pages of the Texas Rangers' list and located 15 of the 18 requested records. I then traveled to Waco with an attorney to retrieve the documents, coordinated their release with multiple agencies, and oversaw numerous meetings with DOJ and investigative agency officials.
After the case concluded, I managed the transfer of more than 250 boxes of Waco records to the National Archives—a year-long project that allowed over 100 long-pending FOIA requests to be referred to NARA for processing. This significantly reduced the number of backlogged requests and I received a lot of accolades from all parties involved, including from NARA and DOJ.
Q. Which FOIA exemption or privilege did you find to be the most challenging to apply and why?
A. I have to say I found FOIA Exemption 4 to be challenging at NASA. Many of the records at NASA contain confidential commercial, financial, proprietary, or scientific information. To me, reviewing and processing those records under this exemption was very tedious and difficult.
Q. Let’s talk about the Office of Government Information Services, where you worked with all three directors that have ever held that position (and served as interim director for a spell). Congress revised the statutory duties of OGIS in 2016. Do you think those changes were sufficient, or is there something else Congress should do?
A. Congress’s statutory duties for OGIS were a great concept, but they fell short because OGIS wasn’t given any enforcement authority. OGIS is tasked to provide mediation and conduct reviews of agencies’ FOIA policies, procedures, and compliance, and offer recommendations for improvements. For its mediation function, many people mistakenly thought OGIS had the authority to arbitrate disputes. Mediation is a voluntary process, and unlike a judge or arbitrator, a mediator does not have the authority to make decisions or impose settlements. Unsurprisingly, requesters would get upset because we couldn’t review disputed records being disputed or compel agencies to release records. That said, one thing we did was to engage with the agencies to clarify the exemptions they applied. Many agencies rely on template response that lack meaningful explanation, which was especially troubling for requesters unfamiliar with FOIA. We began providing more information as to why an agency applied a particular exemption, including more detail about the type of information covered by it.
As for OGIS’s role in reviewing FOIA policies and offering recommendations, it faced similar limitations. During my time there, agencies had to voluntarily agree to be reviewed. OGIS didn’t have the same authority that an agency’s Inspector General (OIG) or Government Accountability Office (GAO) has. We could not simply notify an agency that we were coming to assess its FOIA practices, like OIG or GAO could do. I am not sure how things stand now at OGIS, but if the public expects more from OGIS, the next amendment to the law should spell out Congress’s intent for the office and ensure it has adequate funding to carry out its mission.
Q. Why did you leave OGIS for NASA?
A. I left OGIS to join NASA because NASA was known to be one of the best agencies in the federal government. The position kind of found me. My predecessor at NASA contacted me and said she is retiring and if I wanted to take her position. I knew I wanted to retire in a few years when I left OGIS, and wanted to work in an agency that its employees found its mission fulfilling, pushing the boundaries of human knowledge, and inspiring the world. So, I decided to apply and was fortunate to get the job. As you know, I worked in several agencies during the past 25 years, but NASA was the best place I ever worked at and I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to work there and ended my federal career at NASA.
Q. What’s the biggest threat and/or opportunity with FOIA and its administration today?
A. This is a tough question. I believe the law is often misused or, better said, abused. Professor Margaret Kwoka wrote two noteworthy reports that really get to the heart of the problems with FOIA. She correctly points out the commercial requesters and first party requesters are using FOIA for their own benefit. It’s not journalists or non-profit organizations who are making hundreds of thousands of FOIA requests to advance the public’s interest in knowing what our government is up to. Instead, it’s these two categories of requesters that dominate the system to serve their own private interests and undermines FOIA’s true intent.
Q. Do you think artificial intelligence will displace government information specialists, and if so, how soon from now?
A. No, I don’t believe AI will replace FOIA Specialists—at least not now. AI can and has made FOIA processing more efficient, and there are some remarkable technologies out there. But many of these tools are extremely expensive and most agencies cannot afford them. I saw demonstrations at NASA where companies showcased AI-powered search tools that could quickly scan and identify potentially responsive records across large datasets. It was impressive to see how the technology could significantly reduce the manual time spent on the initial collection of records. In their demo, they showed how AI could assist with organizing and de-duplicating data, as well as identifying common redactions—such as flagging Social Security numbers, medical information, and other sensitive content—which can help speed up the redaction process. However, human oversight remains essential. FOIA decisions require legal judgment, and while AI can be a valuable tool, it is not a substitute for trained FOIA professionals.
Q. If you could change one thing about the statute, what would it be and why?
A. There is a lot I would want to change. As I’ve mentioned before, I believe Professor Kwoka’s reports should be studied and used to make improvement to the law. One area that I felt strongly about is to change the language in section (3)(A) of the statute, which requires records to be available to any “person.” I would propose changing “any person” to a U.S. resident and/or citizen. To be clear, this should apply to “FOIA” request and is not meant for Privacy Act requests that’s processed under both statutes.
As you know, FOIA generally does not allow agencies to ask who is making a FOIA request and their reasons for doing so. This can sometimes be detrimental to the agency’s interest. During my time at NASA, we received quite a few FOIA requests from foreign nationals living abroad. We could not ask why they were making the request or whether the requester was affiliated with a foreign government. Nor could we require proof of residency or a physical mailing address. Many FOIA requesters would only provide us with an email address and expected electronic delivery of records.
In my view, especially for FOIA units overwhelmed with FOIA requests, the law should prioritize access for individuals who reside in the United States. After all, the law was designed to promote government accountability to its citizens and not foreign individuals. I recognize that others may disagree with this position, but I feel strongly this issue warrants serious consideration.
[In June 2022, FOIA Advisor commented on a Senate-proposed bill that sought to ban foreign FOIA requests.]
Q. Where were you born/grow up? How did you find your way to the D.C. area?
A. I was born in Iran, but my parents decided to migrate to the United States when I was 12 years old. We settled in Virginia because my father had family members there.
Q. Where did you go to school and what did you study?
A. I graduated from Jefferson High School in Virginia. After high school, I went to Northern Virginia Community College and then transferred to Marymount University, where I earned a bachelor’s degree in Paralegal Studies. Several years later, I returned to Marymount and completed a master’s degree in Legal Administration.
Q. What was your first job ever? What did you like or not like about it?
A. As part of our undergraduate course work at Marymount University, students in their final semester were required to complete 1200 hours of paralegal work in a legal office. This was to make sure students were able to achieve or execute what they had learned in class. I was able to get an intern position in a law firm in Alexandria, VA. After completing my internship, the firm offered me a job and hired me as their paralegal. They didn’t have Westlaw or LexisNexis because it was a small law firm and these legal research databases were expensive to use. So, the majority of my work was going to the law library to conduct research for the attorneys using the books and doing research in an old-fashioned way. I really enjoyed that. I was with that firm for several years until it dissolved after one of the partners became a judge.
Q. If you could meet any historical icon, of the past or present, who would it be and why?
A. I think Martin Luther King would be one of the historical icons I would have loved to meet. He was a driving force behind the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act. I believe his legacy continues to inspire people worldwide in their fight for justice and equality. I would have loved to see someone like him in Iran doing what he did for this country.
Q. What’s your favorite television show, movie, and book (other than DOJ’s Guide to FOIA)?
A. Aside from loving DOJ’s Guide to FOIA, I like to read anything Jon Meacham writes. I also love listening to his interviews and talks. I find Mr. Meacham to be one of America’s most intellectual historians. He is such an eloquent speaker and writer. As for television shows or movies, I prefer documentaries.
Q. What are you really bad at that you would love to be better at?
A. This question made me laugh!! And I had to think hard about it. I am really bad in math!! I always have to double- check my math with a calculator. That’s why I didn’t pursue any major that required math.